Intuitive Eating & Body Positivity with Terri Pugh

10. Shannon Western - Endometriosis. Do the endo diets work?

June 27, 2021 Terri Pugh Episode 10
Intuitive Eating & Body Positivity with Terri Pugh
10. Shannon Western - Endometriosis. Do the endo diets work?
Show Notes Transcript

This week Shannon Western (of Shannon Western Nutrition) joins me to talk about endometriosis.  We talk about what endometriosis is, whether weight loss can help it (hint, not really!), how Shannon approaches it in her clinic, how nutrition can help endometriosis, and whether the endo diets online can help or not. 

Shannon is a Registered Associate Nutritionist who offers nutrition counselling for disordered eating and women's health conditions. She offers a compassionate, person-centered approach that allows people to explore their eating behaviour and thoughts around food and their body. Shannon offers a Non-Diet and HAES approach to health.

Here is a great article that Shannon has written on endometriosis if you want to know more: https://www.healthnutritionist.co.uk/post/stop-the-endo-belly-our-nutritionist-gives-4-tips-and-4-myths-to-avoid

You can find Shannon on her website at  www.shannonwesternnutrition.com, and on Instagram as  @shannonwesternnutrition and  @womenshealthnutritionist


 

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Please note, this podcast is intended to be general information for entertainment purposes only. Please see a registered professional before adopting significant dietary or other lifestyle changes. 

Always seek professional support if you feel you are affected by any of the topics discussed in this podcast. 

 

 

Related Topics: 

Intuitive Eating, HAES, Health At Every Size, Body Positivity, Body Confidence, Body Positive, Anti Diet, Non Diet, Diet Culture, Food Freedom, Fat Acceptance, Fat Liberation, Self Care, Weight Loss, Eating Disorder, Eating Disorder Recovery, Disordered Eating, Nutritional Therapy, Slimming World, Weight Watchers, Cambridge Diet, Cambridge Plan, 121 Diet, Lighter Life, Noom, Coaching, Healing, Health, Wellness


Terri

Welcome to the Intuitive Eating and Body Positivity podcast. I'm Terri, and I'll be talking about all things Intuitive Eating, body positivity and Health At Every Size, and shaking of weight stigma diet culture and food rules so that we can all have a better relationship with food and our bodies. This week, I'm talking to Shannon Weston. Shannon is a registered associate nutritionist, that's a mouthful I can tell you, and she has a special interest in women's health. So this week we are talking about endometriosis and nutritional support for it in a non diet approach, all the things that are out there on the Internet that tell you what you should and shouldn't eat and whether they are believable or not, and how to look after yourself if you are a sufferer of endometriosis.

In this episode, I do refer to endometriosis sufferers as women. I fully acknowledge that there are people that suffer with women's health issues that do not identify as women. And this discussion really is suitable for anybody who is a sufferer of endometriosis. This not just those who identify as women.

I'll stop waffling now and leave you to listen to the conversation.

Hi Shannon

Shannon

Hi Terri!

Terri

I say that like we haven't just been talking for the past five minutes. Thank you. I'm so happy that you've come on to talk to me. I can't do this all by myself. I don't have the expertise and I'm, like, grateful that you can come on and talk about some bits and pieces.

Shannon

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Terri

Give give us a bit of an intro. Tell us about yourself, who you are, what you do.

Shannon

So I'm Shannon, I'm a registered associate nutritionist. I mainly work in private practise with clients, mainly working in disordered eating, and so that can range from people who are recovering from chronic dieting to people who have more disordered relationships to food, who need more structure and support there. But I also am really interested in helping people with women's health conditions because they tend to also have high rates of disordered eating and a lot of difficult things coming up around food and how it might be impacting their conditions.

So I guess simply working in disordered eating, but also special interest in women's health conditions.

Terri

We spend a lot of time with medical professionals, actual doctors, specialists in the area who through no fault of their own, they go through the training, especially here with the NHS, you go through the training and there's very little nutrition related information. There's very little Health At Every Size based practise and everything seems to be weight orientated. So it's really great that there are people trying to change that and so you don't actually have to think about that. You need to focus on your ailments and let's improve those without worrying about the weight.

Shannon

Yeah, definitely, because actually worrying about weight really isn't giving people the outcomes that, you know, medical professionals want anyway. And it makes things a lot more difficult because stressing about weight and dieting puts stress on the body. And, you know, people who are putting too much emphasis on weight, there are increased rates of disordered eating and increased stress, reduced health behaviours because it's, you know, all linked together and often just feels like, what's the point?

You know, weight loss doesn't work for, you know, 99 percent of people and definitely not long term. So focussing on weight loss is just, you know, it's just unhelpful medicine.

Terri

Yeah, yeah, and we know, I say we I mean the people that are working towards this in our section of the industry, we know that focussing on weight loss in these appointments just actually drives people away. It means that people don't attend appointments. They don't follow what they're being asked to do because they feel like it's all weight orientated. You just don't get good outcomes anywhere through focussing on weight.

Shannon

Yeah, especially with women's health conditions, because I guess it's even more difficult because women's health conditions are under funded, under researched, under represented and diagnosed and throwing into the mix weight loss advice, which, you know, people already have too much info on weight loss advice right. I feel like we need less and more just supporting people where there are and where they want to be.

Terri

Totally agree. You don't go to these appointments saying "what I'd like to do is lose some weight. Oh, and while I'm here, can we fix this please?". It's it's never the focus. So, yeah, we need to take that away. I agree. Yes, we are overwhelmed with information and and actually we need to take that off and put that on the back burner and let people deal with the problems that they've got first. Yeah.

So you have a special interest in women's health. Is that through personal experience or just an area that interests you?

Shannon

Yeah, so I guess it is personal experience. So it kind of brings together a bunch of things. I'm really passionate about it. I don't have endometriosis, which is what we're going to talk about today, but I'm really passionate about women's health conditions because they tend to be conditions that are put down to diet culture solutions in populations who probably are already really suffering with diet culture. And, like, we spoke about having too much information and I do have PMDD, which is I guess a really severe form of PMS.

And so a lot of the advice for PMDD is lifestyle stuff, so exercise, eat certain foods, definitely lose weight, will be in there somewhere and it's just never helpful and it's not supportive for health. And so I guess working in women's health, which would include endometriosis, PCOS, fertility, periods, all of these things tend to be really difficult for people to deal with because they don't have health professional supporting them. So I guess I'm just hoping to be an advocate for people.

And even if I don't have the exact experience they have with endometriosis, or PCOS, at least I can kind of support them through the lens of PMDD, which I do have experience with.

Terri

Yeah, I don't think you necessarily need to have full experience of a condition to be able to support people with it. Like you say, you have some experience with women's health issues. It doesn't mean you have to focus on that one condition. You can empathise with people that are going through similar things. Do you want to give people an explanation of what endometriosis is for those who don't know?

Shannon

Yeah, so endometriosis is a long term health condition where essentially tissues usually grow inside the uterus, grow in other places of the body, so typically on the ovaries, fallopian tubes, in the pelvic cavity or on the surface of the pelvis and on the bladder and the bowel. And what happens is just like during a normal period, all of this tissue sheds, but the blood and the tissue doesn't have anywhere to go. So then that leads to irritation and scarring in those places, which is why kind of the main symptom with Endo is painful periods because of the scarring and the irritation.

And symptoms vary a lot between people, but typically tends to be painful periods, heavy periods and just generally exhaustion, fatigue, mental health difficulties leading up to the period. And from clients I've worked with, it just seems to be a sense of impending doom when they know their period is coming.

Terri

Mm hmm. Yeah, I can speak from some personal experience here. I suffer with it, not to the extreme that some people do. I know that it's varying the levels of endometriosis. I think I'm probably the lower end of the scale, and some people are completely bedridden and you have to have medical intervention for it, so I know that I'm quite lucky, but I still feel those things that you say. That sense of impending doom, that sums it up for me.

It coming round. I'm thinking, here we go, here's going to be days of pain, of exhaustion, of just feeling urgh, and mental fogginess. I know that I'm not on top form when I'm going through that. Yeah, it's it's more than just, some people might think it's it's heavy cramping, it's so much more than that.

Shannon

Yeah, and if we even think of, you know, people who don't have any thinking about heavy, painful periods, those are already so difficult to deal with, right. So on top, you know, scarring inside, you know, often endo is said just to be heavy periods, but even, you know, normal happy periods, are debilitating.

Terri

Yes, very true. It's funny, isn't it? The same the same functions throughout all women and such varying experiences of it. It's just the body amazes me all the time.

Shannon

Yeah, and I guess eventually people might be wondering why is it here, where they come from? Endo affects, it varies, but between one in seven to ten people who menstruate and there's no real known source. There are a couple of theories. One is genetics and one is just the way that the body has periods. So often the period blood doesn't leave but it kinda goes back up through the uterus. So that might be helpful for people just to think if they're thinking where has this come from. It's not known.

Like a lot of women's health conditions, I guess funding is only just starting to be an option. I think that there there was a huge grant funded for endometriosis research in the UK recently, which is yet really big deal. And I've even seen some PhD projects on endo at the University of Edinburgh.

Terri

Amazing.

Shannon

So yeah. So yeah, that's really good. Yeah.

Terri

Yeah. it can take a, I speak only from my personal experience, it can take a long time for it to be diagnosed as well. If you're going down the, the GP route or you know, without erm investigating procedures, it can take a long time to convince somebody that no, these are not just period pains. This is not just what I'm experiencing because you can, you have to describe how you feel and that's hard to do with that kind of sensation sometimes.

Shannon

Yeah, so I think in the UK, it's eight years on average, I think Ireland is nine and yeah, so on average, like eight years just to receive a diagnosis, which is, yeah, it's shocking.

Terri

It's a long time for people to suffer. So when people present to you with endo, how do you approach it?

Shannon

I guess as someone who's also specialising in disordered eating and always starting there, because I want to know, OK, first of all, what do you understand about endo? Because oftentimes people don't have a diagnosis, so they don't have a treatment plan. Sometimes people come to me with I have endo, or I think I have, and it's not been diagnosed, so I guess we spend a lot of time, OK, what does that mean? Symptom discovery, finding out if they have any other symptoms that might be other conditions like IBS which is really high in people with endo.

Spending a bit of time, I guess, it's just really exploratory thinking about their relationship to food and all of the things they've been told about endo management, which oftentimes is eliminating foods. There's this, I guess if you, don't do this, but if you searched endo diet you would get a ton of info that really isn't based on anything apart from What diet culture tells people to do, and so I guess when I first meet someone, I try not to overwhelm, but just exploring what's going on.

What's been happening and giving them a bit of, well giving them a lot of, compassion. A lot of space to speak through what they've heard about endo.

Terri

This is the benefit of talking to somebody who actually knows about endo. Dr. Google is an absolute nightmare when, you know, you can go on and search for things and come up with some brilliant answers. It's great if you're looking for answers to your homework,.When it comes to things like medicine and the body and nutrition, while there's a whole wealth of nonsense out there.

Shannon

Yeah, and I guess with Endoo, it's just really extra difficult because there's barely any scientific research, right, and scientific research is what bases treatment and, you know, NHS guidelines that we, that are, often, sometimes not because they do focus on weight loss, evidence based, but with endo there's no clear cut this is how you need to eat. Not that it should be how you should eat, but the guidance is there's not a lot of basis for it, even in circles that often aren't good sources like the NHS.

And then we've got the added element of I guess, you know, people just say what they want online selling people and diet plans, people who are desperate and vulnerable because they're having such a hard time and they're not being listened to by their GP. Mm hmm. So they get online and they're told to cut out sugar is a big one. I'm not sure why which we'll get into. And in general, it's no surprise to me that the foods that people are told to cut out when they have endo are the same foods that diet culture demonises.

Terri

Yeah, the sugar argument drives me absolutely crazy. I can't bear it. And things, like, a lot of these things will stem from other conditions as well. So I was listening to a podcast by Christy Harrison yesterday and it was on a different subject, but she was saying much the same, that a lot of these suggestions for how to manage conditions with diet are often based on, say, a similar condition. But a similar condition is not the same condition. So you can't just move one diet onto another condition and expect it to work miracles.

Shannon

Yeah, and with endo I see a lot of just, like, a lot of online diet stuff and a lot of contradictions. So it will say don't eat dairy, but then it also says don't eat like estrogen containing foods, but recommend soy milk. So it's just like, it's like, you know, it'll be easier for us to spot, you know this is nonsense. But actually someone who isn't I guess maybe you have blinders on a bit or just looking for answers.

They're going to see that and think, OK, no estrogen's. OK. I'm going to drink soy milk, no dairy. And it kind of just doesn't click. And you kinda can't see that it's just nonsense and not, it doesn't make sense.

Terri

No, and the the actual damage that can be done by removing these foods, that these ill-informed diets are telling you to remove, actually the damage that can be done through doing that can be more of a hindrance than a help. So the vitamin deficiencies, the mineral deficiencies, the taking out of entire food groups that your body needs to function. Like you say, you have to know how nutrition works to be able to follow a diet like that because you need to be replacing the things you're taking out.

Shannon

Yeah, that's a really good point. There's a really big argument in endo not eat dairy, which actually in systematic reviews on endo, which is one of our highest pieces of evidence of research, dairy is actually thought to be protective of endo symptoms. And also the development, right, in people who don't have endo, and that's though to be vitamin D and calcium, but endo diets online are telling people not to eat that. So, yeah, really confusing and really, really frustrating to see and read.

Terri

Yeah. Frustrating is the word, isn't it, for the people who are suffering. It is just such a muddled amount of information. You just don't have any clarity, and when you're feeling low anyway from all the suffering, wouldn't it be lovely to just have this one place you could go to to get some solid information. And like you say you think the NHS would be a good source of information, but when you're already suffering with disordered eating or eating disorders, to then go to a source like the NHS and see that one of the advisories is weight loss or weight management, it's not helpful.

And that's not to take away from the good that the NHS is doing, but sometimes, sometimes their information just needs tweaking to better themselves for people like the eating disorder sufferers.

Shannon

Yeah, yeah, definitely, and also just for transferring this information to real life. Because sometimes you see something like, let's say, let's say a website is more based on fact and, you know, some sort of .endo diet plan, it might say, you know, make sure to eat five portions of fruit and vegetables right. But actually, in real life, that's just not going to happen a lot of the time, some of the time for people.

I certainly don't eat five portions of veg every day. That to me is I mean, that's impossible everyday, right? Because your tastes are going to vary. And then if we think of someone who's suffering with a long term health condition like endo, where a lot of people are bed bound right, we just cannot say to people, oh, yeah, manage this condition with eating five portions of fruit and vegetables. It's just in some ways I don't think it's any better than eliminate X, Y, Z foods because it also puts down people's lived experience right. When really it should be, OK self compassion. Some days I'm not going to eat, you know, what I'm meant to. And that's also ok.

Terri

Yeah, absolutely. In Intuitive Eating we learn that it's about overall balance over the weeks, over the months. And if you are getting a good range of foods into your diet, you are covering those things that that five portions of fruit and veg a day will give you. And like you say, when you're completely bed bound the last thing you're thinking is must get up, must go and eat an orange, because, you know, I've got to get my fruit and veg in. Just doesn't work like that. It's unrealistic.

Shannon

Yeah, unrealistic and unhelpful and futher can put people into disordered eating and feeling, I guess, it's just feeling helpless and feeling like they're not doing enough for their own health, when actually just, being is taking care of your health, right.

Terri

Yeah. Yeah. Going back to what you said before, it's about the care and the compassion for yourself and about looking after yourself and making yourself comfortable.

Shannon

Yeah, and oftentimes I think I think people come to a nutritionist like me thinking that I have all the answers right. What can I eat with endo, what can I eat? And there are some foods that, in the research, we have some foods that, you know, maybe be mindful of and some food to eat more of. But even then, you know, some people, on this list of foods that you're meant to be mindful of, some people might be fine with them and some people might have worse symptoms with the foods are meant to have more of.

And so it's really just trial and error for you and not and not based on what other people tell you.

Terri

Those foods that are, say, recommended to have a bit more of or to stay away from, do you find that that's covered in an overall balanced diet anyway, or is it that we should be making a bit of an effort to have some of?

Shannon

Yeah. Good question. So I think in an overall balanced diet, I feel like the foods that we are, quote unquote, not meant to eat with endo, I feel like they are in balance with what's recommended in the research anyway. So when I see foods that you would be mindful of with endo, that would be things like alcohol and caffeine and red meat and in a balanced diet, I feel like you're eating, Oh, I don't know the wording, I don't want to see mindfully, with red meat and caffeine and alcohol, you're probably eating how much you're meant to based on the research.

And so I guess what we would bring in with an anti diet approach would be adding foods in with general nutrition, and figuring out what works for the person and also just doesn't look too overwhelming.

Terri

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for feeling how a food makes you feel. There's a lot to be said for having something, seeing how how it impacts on your body, deciding whether that's a good thing for you to have or not.

Shannon

Yeah, and even just thinking about how you eat the food. Say, vegetables are foods you're told to eat more of in endo. There's a big difference between, you know, a plate of roasted vegetables with fish and some rice and some nice dressing, and then there is like a cold salad. There's a big difference there as well, because you also think about how it makes you feel when you eat it and also digestion, because people with endo usually have digestive problems as well.

 Terri
Yeah, you're right. To do a catch all, eat more vegetables, well, all vegetables are different. All vegetables have got different nutrients, satisfaction when you eat it. You wouldn't want to have a plate, well, I don't know, maybe you would want to have a plate, full of steaming hot veg on a really hot summer day, but you wouldn't want to eat a plate of salad in the middle of winter. I speak broadly, obviously. So, yeah. You can't just blanket statement, have more vegetables.

 And the IBS thing. Yes, you're you're right. Digestive issues is prominent, isn't it, with Endo? I'm I'm aware of that. So to then ask people to eat more veg, which is likely going to upset that, you're doing more harm than good aren't you.

 Shannon
Yeah, and I'm also thinking, you know, with Endo, if you tell people to eat more veg, I think that automatically I think it implies that you're cutting something else out. Having veg in place of, you know, some other food, like, let's say meat or cheese or something, which is just diet culture statements. You know, I do think eat more plants is helpful when you're talking about adding in , but if, you know, you're saying eat less, don't eat that and you are saying eat more veg, that, to me, implies people are eating, you know, 99 percent of veg on their plate, which that's probably not satisfying for most people.

Terri
No, you're right. That takes me right back to old diet days. You must have X amount of your plate as vegetables before you put anything else on it. And I swear it demonises people away from vegetables, because actually they're really enjoyable if you do them in a way that you like them. It's just we spend so long being told to eat them, with it being drilled into us, that it turns us off eating the things that are actually pretty nutritious and that we would enjoy given half a chance.

 Shannon
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

 Terri
Let's talk about self care then, what do you find are ways that you find most beneficial to look after yourself in these low times? What do you find makes you most comfortable?

 Shannon
I guess, I guess I run my own business so I could set my own time, so this is difficult if you're working in a place where you do shift work, things like that. But I find calendar blocking is just my best friend. So I guess it's thinking about, OK, when are my symptoms going to be highest? When is my period coming? How can I fit my calendar around it? So like last week I had really bad PMDD symptoms, so I did have a bit more of a quiet week and kind of put my calendar around that.

 So I knew I was going to be in the mood for certain things. So I put them into the week before. So I think that's a really good option if you can. And I guess this is also kind of self care. Period tracking I think, can be really powerful so that you can know trends, right. Say, on day 20 of your cycle, that's when the symptoms always seem to strike. You know, adding in self care the day before, on that day, the day after, can be really powerful.

 And also, I guess with Endo and with women's health conditions in general it can be really difficult to sleep in the lead up to symptoms becoming worse. So I guess thinking about sleep, having good sleep hygiene. Put your phone away before bed, maybe having a hot drink. But also just being aware that sometimes things are not going to be perfect. In all the guidance that I'm seeing, you know, do this to that, sometimes self care isn't going to be possible in the way you want it to.

 So I think also being aware of that and managing your expectations of how you should be based on blanket advice that people can give you and working on accepting that things things are going to be difficult and they're not going to be ideal. And just thinking about last week, I done all the sleep hygiene stuff and I played with my cat so she would sleep all night before I went to bed, and I still just couldn't sleep because  a symptom of PMDD is really racing thoughts at night. Really anxious thoughts, and I just couldn't sleep and I'm also like that's OK, I've done everything I should have. I still didn't sleep, you know, for like four hours. Slept for like four hours less than I usually would but that's OK right. So I guess just trying to do yourself care. If it doesn't work that's also OK.

 Terri
Oh, it's tough to go without sleep. I don't know about you, but I need I need a good night's sleep so that is tough, and then you throw on top the symptoms, yeah, that's, that's hard going. You're right. It takes a little while doesn't it, to get into the way of thinking that actually I'm not going to function as well as I could today. That's fine.

 I go and I do a day job and so I know that for a couple of days my output is not going to be as high as it usually is. I am not going to be as clear thinking as I usually am. I dress myself more comfortably. I have to dress reasonably smartly, but I can wear different clothes, so things like things with elastic trousers. You've just got to be a bit more compassionate towards yourself and a little bit of self kindness and know that give it a couple of days and it will be feeling better.

 Shannon
And I think that's the power of tracking symptoms and trends. I think that can be really helpful.

 Terri
Yeah, there's some really good trackers out there, aren't the free ones as well. You don't have to pay to get these things. Just one more thing before we end the conversation. What's your thoughts on water intake? Do you think it's beneficial for endo?

 Shannon
So I know the kind of advice online, these so-called endo diets, they do recommend, you know, just be mindful of water intake, and I agree. I think water is essential for overall health. I don't think, I've often seen claims that drinking more water when you've got symptoms makes it better make symptoms like pain management, I don't agree with that. But I think that, you know, being mindful of water intake, you know, drinking two-ish litres day, if that's manageable for you, will be helpful to deal with symptoms like brain fog might be helpful.

 Also, I guess just the sense of well-being that you might get from drinking water. Doesn't need to be straight water, you could drink some tea or some like squash with water. With endo there's quite a bit of evidence that caffeine can trigger pain symptoms so I guess opting for caffeine free tea or coffee would be an option. But just on the caffeine, it's not like you need to not drink caffeine. It's about two hundred milligrams a day. So the same guidance as in pregnancy, that's the kind of guidance you would go by. But some people, I guess it's trial and error,  some people caffeine is ok, some people it's not. Caffeine free teas might be an option for hydration.

 Terri
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Hydration is good all round, right. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for chatting with me. I have just two questions that I'm asking everybody now that comes on the podcast. Firstly, what is the food that gives you the most pleasure?

 Shannon
So I love you like an authentic margarita pizza. Mmm, yeah. Ones that are maybe I have not gotten it from an Italian restaurant, but ones that just give you the vibe that they're made in a stone oven. I just absolutely love them. There's one at the co-op that I'm in love with. Yeah. Really nice mozzarella pizza. That's my fave.

 Terri
Cannot go wrong with that. Yeah. And then if you were going to leave the listeners with one final piece, last words of wisdom, what would they be?

 Shannon
Yeah, I think it would be just like all diets, health claims, nutrition claims online is by your reading and taking advice from less qualified people on the Internet who are probably trying to sell you something it's fuelling this cycle. I guess it is keeping people in this loop of trying to control their health with food and actually food only makes up a tiny piece of a puzzle in health and so if someone's claiming that you can cure endo just with food, you just get out of there because that's not the case.

 And we really don't know that much about endo and food to eat or not to eat to give people that advice. So, yeah, just making sure you remember that food is not medicine and that medicine's medicine. Food can maybe help, but it's not going to cure endo.

 Terri
Perfect. Thank you. Well, we got through it. We did it. The cats have not interrupted us. All is well. Oh, thank you. I feel like I've chatted with you online for such a long time. It's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you face to face.

 Shannon
Yeah, I, I actually forgot that we hadn't spoken in person before.

 Terri
I know, I know. It's funny isn't it. That's the way it is now. You feel like you know people and actually you haven't actually talked to them so yeah. I've really appreciated it. Thank you.

 Oh, how was that? Wasn't that a good conversation? It was funny talking to Shannon, because I have in inverted commas, known Shannon for quite a while now through social media, but we've never actually spoken face to face. So it was quite nice to actually talk to her and have a conversation with her about these things.

 Shannon is lovely, and I urge you to follow her social media and see what she has to say on all things health and non diet. Her profiles are really informative. So all the details are in the show notes or you can just find her at ShannonWestonNutrition.com and on Instagram as @ShannonWestonNutrition.

 OK, have a great week. Let me know what you get up to. Please do give my podcast a little share. If you listen to it and if you like it, please do tell people about it and let's spread the non diet and body positivity message.

Also, I really love hearing whether you enjoyed the podcast or not. I'm open to feedback. I am not one to dismiss criticism. But I had a conversation with this week with somebody who said how much they enjoyed it. I didn't even know that they were listening. So, Lucy, thank you for your feedback. It's lovely to hear that you are listening and that you are enjoying it.

 So, yeah, please get in touch. I love to hear from people. So drop me a message if you feel like it. Right. Have a great week. I'll speak to you next week.